[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to Revolve, where we explore big questions from all angles.
Each season, we use one big question to dive into a topic with experts showing how perspective matters in building thoughtful solutions.
I'm Tripp Williams.
Season one, what makes an economy strong and vibrant?
Using Seattle as a case study, this season, we talk with different people involved in economic development to learn how economies are built.
The following episode features Brian McGowan, CEO of Greater Seattle Partners. Greater Seattle Partners is a public private partnership working to promote a strong economy for the Seattle region.
In this episode, Brian and I talk about the benefit of planning economies regionally, the economic strength and potential in Seattle, and the importance of building economies that include everyone.
And one quick note for you. You'll notice a change in the audio about halfway through. That's us switching sources to work through some tech challenges.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: I'm very excited to have Brian McGowan from Greater Seattle Partners on. Brian, welcome.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: Thank you.
Excited for this conversation.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, Brian, you offer a really interesting and rich set of experiences. I'm excited to talk a little bit more about those in the episode. I want to start with just a few definitions.
So what does economic development mean to you and the communities you've worked with?
[00:01:31] Speaker C: So that's a really big question. I've been doing economic development for over 20 years in different parts of the country and public and private organizations and all levels of government. So it means different things. I've seen lots of different definitions, but for me, it really boils down to, I think, what is the vision for Greater Seattle Partners?
We are a regional economic development organization representing the three county Puget Sound region or Greater Seattle region.
Our vision statement is that every person in the region has an opportunity to prosper.
So I think that's what really is the basis of economic development, is to make sure that people within the jurisdiction that you're concentrating on that everybody has an opportunity to prosper. So whether you're a small business or a large business, or you're a high school graduate or you're late in career changing career, kind of a person that your economy should be providing opportunities so that anybody who wants to live there has an opportunity.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: I think that's a really rich and engaging definition. Thanks for starting there. I'm curious, the work you've been involved with, either in your current role or past examples, the projects that you've seen really work well, and those that you've seen maybe work not as well. What are the characteristics that you've seen for those successful projects? And what about the common traits of those Projects that haven't fared as well.
[00:03:12] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. Because as all professions and disciplines kind of evolve and change, and over my 20 years of doing this, I think I probably would have answered that question differently, depending on what point in my career you would be asking me that question. So, you know, a lot of places would have considered maybe 20 years ago, 15 years ago, even now in some places, depending on the needs of the economy, that kind of any win is a win. So I've been involved in projects where you provide, you know, governments provide an incentive to get a company to locate, whether that's a headquarters or a manufacturing facility or whatever it might be.
And that's considered a win, right? Just a win is a win. A company located More and more now it's the conversation shifting towards inclusion or economic inclusion. So it's not just are you able to provide an incentive to get a company to locate? But questions are being asked about how many people of color did that company hire? Does that company provide down payment assistance for its employees?
Does that company provide transit subsidies for its employees?
Will that company prioritize hiring locals as opposed to importing people from outside of the market for those jobs?
So those are more questions that I would say that successful economic development projects kind of take that holistic picture, whether you're providing an incentive and trying to get a company to locate, that you're thinking about economic inclusion.
I think projects are where incentives are provided to companies that may not need the incentives.
Incentives, unfortunately, this game of incentives, and we should talk a little bit about that, but this game of incentives, there's lots of criticism about whether or not they work and whether or not there should be a national moratorium on incentives. Who are the winners and losers when a company is offered an incentive?
I think incentives are good, but I think incentives can be overused or abused. And so I think a bad project would be a jurisdiction and economic development organization over giving. When it comes to an incentive, not getting enough from not recognizing the value you're supposed to bring to your constituent.
Great.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: That's a really helpful place to start, and I would love to circle back to that. So I think another later question will bring us back to the chance to dive in a little bit more about that. So that's great. So, Brian, you just offered an example of something when it comes to inclusion that hasn't always been considered in economic development projects.
And to our benefit, that now is something that's more consistently included. What's an example or what are the things that we still aren't thinking about. When we think about economic development, what's still missing from our thinking?
[00:06:23] Speaker C: Well, there's a few different ways I could answer that question.
I think people need to understand that economic development, when you're thinking about growing your economy or attracting investment, there's other factors. It's not just incentives, it's not just business attraction, but it's also the quality of your transportation system, it's the quality of Your K through 12 educational system, it's your community college system, your workforce delivery systems, it's your crime rates, it's the quality of your streets and your parks, quality of life that investment has.
It's also regulation, right? So it's politicians, places that are. If there's too much regulation or if there's political uncertainty or instability, money investment likes to go where it feels safe and where it's going to be protected.
Economic development, at the end of the day, it's a zero sum game when it comes to companies and dollars can choose between best products. So. So if one city is offering more incentives or has lower crime rate, better workforce delivery systems, better quality of life, they're going to have an advantage. And so this kind of game of economic development has to be seen holistically. As an economic developer, I see obviously to a hammer everything's a nail, I guess. But for me, economic developer, I kind of see everything that a government does affects its long term economic outcomes and trajectory.
And so I think all of those, I think we have to remember that all of these things add up to economic development.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: That's actually a great segue to my next question. You alluded a little bit earlier to the different experiences you've had in economic development from working in the government to now your current role a little bit more focused on private sector development. I'm curious if you can trace for us your path and what brought you to your role today, focused more on the private sector.
[00:08:37] Speaker D: Yes.
So I started my career in government economic development. So I worked for cities and counties in California. My first job out of college, I worked for the city of Palm Springs, California.
And I really enjoyed that work because you do have the kind of, you know, the power and the authority and the tools of a government entity to do economic development and market a place and attract investment and, you know, create that business friendly environment that businesses want. So that was really a really great way to. It's a really great way to start your career in economic development. And then, you know, I moved up and I worked to, I worked for the Schwarzenegger administration. So I was Deputy Secretary of Commerce for the state of California. Now in that role, you're a little more removed from the direct negotiations with developers and working directly with employers to make sure that they're staying in your jurisdiction and growing. It's more kind of policy related, less high touch, but. But still very, very interesting. And then later in my career, when I was in Atlanta, I did a couple years doing economic development with the Metro Atlanta Chamber, which is where I was working with for the first time. I was working in what's known as a public private partnership model of economic development. So working with a lot of CEOs and private companies along with government entities. And it's just a very.
It's a more flexible way to do economic development.
You know, governments do have lots of restrictions and what they can and can't do. But it's also very powerful when you have the CEOs of big companies that are activated to help market and sell and attract investment to your jurisdiction. It's a different kind of economic development, which I found very challenging.
So that's how I ended up in my current role, is that this was a very unique opportunity in a couple ways. Number one, I always say this is the most beautiful place I've ever lived and I love that. I love being here. But secondly, the economy in this region is just spectacular.
It punches above its weight. It's just a very interesting, sophisticated economy, large, fast growing, diverse.
I wanted to be there. And the third reason is that GSP Greater Seattle Partners is a startup. This region has never come together before to do economic development as a region, which is fairly unusual. Most major American regions have been doing this for a long time. So I thought that would be an interesting challenge to come and do that and pull the public and private sector together to do economic development.
Sure.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: And that's actually. I'd love to click on that one for a moment. You talk about the region versus the city and I'm curious if you can offer perspective on when we think about the different unit, if you will, where economic growth occurs, what is ideal?
[00:12:03] Speaker D: Yeah, no, it's a great question because I think that's one of the reasons why this region hasn't come together as a region and worked together whereas a lot of other American regions, not just American, but internationally.
This notion of regional economic development makes sense because regions work, economies work regionally. So I always tell people economies don't work within the little lines that we draw on maps. So there's not many people who I am sure there are people. But there's not a lot of people who are born and stay and live in the same town and work in the same town and go to school in the same town for their entire lives. So I know, for example, a typical day for me is I'm probably in, I'm in at least two different counties. I'm in at least, I drive through at least three or four different cities.
And most people do you work in one city, you, you shop in a different city, you live in a different city. So those dollars freely cross these little lines that we draw on maps.
And workforce does the same thing, right? Workforce doesn't stay within those jurisdictions either. So economies fundamentally work regionally.
I think too often entities see themselves within regions, see themselves as competitors, which is, I think, a real issue in this region.
So in the year and a half that I've been here, you know, we, we hear, I've heard stories of, you know, Tacoma competing with Seattle and, you know, Seattle competing with Bellevue. And, you know, at the end of the day, yes, that's. There's going to be a certain amount of intra regional competition, but all our boats are going to rise and fall together, you know, so Bellevue needs Seattle to be successful, Tacoma needs Seattle to be successful, and vice versa.
So at the end of the day, we're all in this together and we all need to work together.
But it's important that cities and counties sub regionally have good economic development programs to support a regional economic program.
And so the example I give is this region, for example, which is no different than Atlanta or Dallas or Minneapolis, is, Is made up of multiple counties and multiple cities.
But the whole world sees Atlanta as one region. But Atlanta, I asked somebody this question once. I said, what do you think the population of Atlanta is?
And the answer was 5 million.
This is what this person said. They said, I think there's probably about 5 million people live in Atlanta. And the answer is there's 470,000 people that live in Atlanta. Oh, wow, 470,000. So it's the 37th largest city in America. What he was referring to was the region, which is 29 counties and dozens of cities like Dunwoody and Marietta and Alpharetta and DeKalb. And so people see most people see cities as regions anyway. And so like this region, when people, I always say Seattle's a word,
[00:15:21] Speaker C: I
[00:15:21] Speaker D: always say Seattle's a word that refers to this region. And most people, most, I would say people around the world see, they understand that there's multiple cities in Seattle.
But Tacoma and Everett and Bellevue and Redmond and Kent, and all these great cities are part of the Seattle region. And so it makes sense when you're marketing a region to use the name of the city that's most well known.
So Seattle is a well known international name versus I love Everett, I love Tacoma, I love Bellevue. But they're not as well known. The name isn't as well known. So we should all kind of rally around that name that is most recognizable to the world.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Sure. It reminds me, as a quick aside, I was in Buenos Aires during a time in college, and their neighborhoods are sort of how we describe our sub cities. Right.
And so there's a banner that.
The banner of Buenos Aires comprises all of the different neighborhoods.
And we've just decided to have a bit more of a granular administrative detail. Right, yeah. So it breaks up all the different components into their own city names.
[00:16:39] Speaker D: But yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah. The other thing is that some of these international cities are gigantic cities. You know, American cities tend not to be.
Don't have that large a footprint, you know, so, you know, I remember I was in Rio with the mayor of Atlanta on a trade mission, and we were all sitting around, one of the deputy mayors asked Mayor Reid, you know, what's the population of Atlanta?
And his answer was 5 million.
[00:17:09] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:10] Speaker D: But he was the mayor of 470,000. But Rio's. I forget the population of Rio. It's probably like 17 million, I'm guessing.
So it's very different. People think all cities are the same. They're very different around the world, you know, I mean, even, you know, American cities are like villages in China.
A big Chinese city is 25, 30 million. Small Chinese cities are 12 million.
Our region, just for reference for the listeners, is our entire region is 4 million people who live in this region. The population of the city of Seattle is just under 800,000 people. Right, right.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: It's logarithmic, almost our relation to Chinese.
The next thing I wanted to ask you, and I do want to ask you about what you see when it comes to Seattle and the region's prospects.
And I kind of want to ask it at two different levels, if you don't mind. We obviously were recording this in the midst of COVID 19, and the world just tipped on its side, really changed for sure. To ask the. I'd love to ask in a vacuum, maybe in the abstract, what you were seeing before everything started. And also then for maybe the same set of questions or to offer your perspective on knowing what we know. How do we maybe adjust to this new normal and also maybe take advantage of some of these new realities to redress some of the things that haven't maybe been ideal. Yeah, I'd love to know first of all, what gets you excited about the opportunities or are there specific projects that you've been really drawn to and energized by and then also are there ones that you'd like to, in this new environment we're living in that you'd like to pursue with more energy?
[00:19:00] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:19:01] Speaker D: Yeah, a lot there.
I want to start off by saying that I mentioned earlier that the economy here is pretty spectacular.
It's big and diverse. I use the phrase punch above its weight.
So our GDP per capita is one of the top in the United States. I think we're number two.
GDP per capita. We are the 11th largest economy in the United States right now by GDP.
And again, that's a region of only 4 million people.
It just so happens Atlanta, a region of 6 million people, their GDP is the 10th largest in the United States.
And the data pre Covid data was pretty clear that next year we were going to surpass Atlanta in the size of the economy. So our regional economy next year, and it's lagging data, so it will likely show that we will pass Atlanta's economy next year. We'll be the 10th largest economy. So we were the fastest growing economy in the United States last year for the first time in a long time. I think maybe the first time in our history. So our regional economy.
So part of that is, you know, we're, we're diverse, we have some big companies here.
[00:20:26] Speaker C: Right?
[00:20:26] Speaker D: So another one of my favorite bragging points is there's only been four companies in US history that have broken a trillion dollars in market value.
And two of those companies are from here. They're architects.
It's Microsoft and Amazon right now. Think about that. That's remarkable. That's not Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, but from little old Seattle, we have $2 trillion companies. And the other two companies that are trillion dollar companies are Apple and Google. And Apple and Google, as you know, have a huge and growing presence here within this region. In fact, I think I read recently that Apple will have more employees here than any place outside of their headquarters in Menlo Park. You know, so not only do we have that, but we also have, you know, brands that I'm almost ashamed to admit that I didn't know were Seattle companies. I didn't know Redfin and Zillow were Seattle companies. I didn't know Weyerhaeuser was a Seattle company. I didn't know Nordstrom and REI and Expedia were Seattle companies.
You know, I think most Americans think Boeing packed up and left and they're not here.
As you know, Boeing has 75,000 employees in the state and most of them are here in this region.
Then we have Blue Origin and we have SpaceX and our kind of aerospace and new space sectors that are growing.
And then all the other companies, Disney has a huge presence here. HBO has a huge presence here.
Mercedes Benz has their autonomous vehicle R and D global R and D center here.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Oh wow.
[00:22:16] Speaker D: JP Morgan Chase has its global fintech R and D center here.
So there's all these other gems that we have within a region that by the way, also has three deep water ports.
So there's not a lot of cities in America, in my opinion, that have all of those economic assets and a volcano.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Brian, we also.
[00:22:40] Speaker D: Yeah, that's true.
We do have that.
Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty remarkable package of things.
So pre Covid, we were doing well. But that kind of growth, as we all know, creates problems. We had traffic and congestion and affordability and homelessness and things that come along with that kind of, you know, that level of growth.
Brookings considers us one of five superstar cities in the United States that has a large share of tech jobs in America. So a lot of places jealous, despite the fact that that kind of growth does cause issues.
So I think we had a lot going for us.
But I also believe because of that diversity and because of that level of, I think innovation and one of the words I love about this region that people are very proud of is pioneering. You know, I think the culture of this region is pioneering. I think we, we are not followers, we're not club joiners is what someone told me that people here like to cut their own path, you know, which is why I think we've created companies like Amazon and Microsoft and Redfin and Zillow.
[00:24:04] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:04] Speaker D: These industry changing kinds of companies.
So that stays with us post Covid. We're still pioneering, we're still innovative, we're still creative, we're still hard working. Just who we are as a culture. We still have this amazing quality of life that attracts talent from all over the world. So none of that's going to change.
So I think the new landscape, the new normal is going to be
[00:24:32] Speaker C: some
[00:24:32] Speaker D: clusters are going to win and grow.
If you watch the stock market, companies like Amazon and Microsoft are doing really well right now.
Other clusters maybe not so much things are going to shift.
Supply chains will shift, I think. I think you might see some on shoring or reshoring of advanced manufacturing. I think we stand to maybe benefit or take advantage of that.
I also think the other thing that might come out of this that might be good is that live work, balance dealing. I think telework is going to become a new normal. We've seen Zillow already announced that they're allowing their employees to work from home for the rest of the year.
Amazon and Microsoft said their employees can work from home until October.
So I think you'll see more telework. And that means people who come and move and live here don't have to live in the center of the region. You know, they, you could live in Kitsap, you could live in Tacoma, you could live in Everett, and maybe you come down to the office, you know, I don't know, part of the month, you know, part of the week, I should say, or. But not every day, which takes people off the roads.
So I think we're positioned really well long term to come out of this probably faster than most places.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: And I'm curious. So back to our topic at the top. You mentioned again, one of the most positive trends you've seen is a greater consideration for inclusion and the consideration for how multiple demographies and parts of a community are affected by an economic development project. And as we know, there's been different rates of advancement for different groups over the course of the last several decades. And there's an inflection point now. Right. Are there things that you think either we could even consider on the national level that you'd be excited to experiment with or try to maybe again redress some of the challenges that the economy as it's been structured as wrought?
[00:26:47] Speaker D: Well, I touched upon one which I think is the advent of telework or telecommuting. And again, my crystal ball doesn't work real great, but dang it,
[00:27:02] Speaker C: I gotta
[00:27:03] Speaker D: bring it to the shop and have that thing work. But I might be wrong, but it seems logical that companies will allow people to work from home more, which I think is it helps address some of those issues of equity as people will be able to afford more house because they won't have to live in the center of the region anymore.
I think that's an opportunity. But I was just on a call earlier today about the economic recovery prospects of this region, and one of the highly paid consultants on this call talked about workforce, workforce development is going to. We're going to need to Kind of retool our workforce as workforce skills might shift.
I think, for example, biotech, we have a burgeoning biotech cluster here, as you know, and that's clearly going to grow and have more importance, I think.
I think we have to really, when we think about economic inclusion, we are at risk in this region because I've said often that we're kind of barreling down that San Francisco path right now, you know, which San Francisco really has an exclusive economy. If you're not rich, you can't live there economy.
You know, we're, we're expensive as you know, and everybody listening knows, but we're not as expensive as San Francisco. But we're on our way down that path. So I think if we can rethink telework so that everybody doesn't have to jam into the center of the region and try to live as close to the center of the region as possible.
I think we also have a long history of making things in this region. It's one of the things I love about this region because we have three deep water ports and great companies like Boeing.
We're good at making stuff. That's why Blue Origin's here. That's why SpaceX just opened a facility in Redmond.
We have companies that make satellites here.
We have companies that make toys, Funco and Everett.
[00:29:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:09] Speaker D: We have a company in Woodinville called Precor that makes high end exercise equipment. Like we make all kinds of things here. We make wine, we make a lot of stuff. We have a manufacturing culture here. So if there's this opportunity that I think might emerge of reshoring of companies kind of rethinking their supply chains to get product they're manufacturing closer to their customers, I think that's something this region could probably take advantage of and create more of those middle wage jobs. Right. So those 25 to $45 an hour jobs, we're really good at creating $100,000 jobs and above, you know, which is for me it's a little bit of a gear shifting. As an economic developer coming from the south, you know, where all the focus was on $100,000 a year and above jobs like that's what you, that's what you wanted.
Truthfully, Greater Seattle Partners, our focus is going to be on those 25 to $45 an hour jobs that we're losing.
We want to make sure we're holding on to our aerospace cluster which has some real headwinds for the next few years. With commercial air traffic changing and Boeing's issues.
We got to make sure we don't lose that. And we got to make sure that if there are opportunity for onshoring of advanced manufacturing, that we're taking advantage of those.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: That's great. And before I move to our last question, I just want to be sure if someone listening is interested in trying to get in touch with Greater Seattle partners. Can you tell the audience how they might be able to learn more and. Or reach out to your group?
[00:30:48] Speaker D: Yes. The best way would be our website, which is Greater Seattle.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Great.
[00:30:55] Speaker D: Greater-seattle.com and we. That's where you can, you can find me on that website, too, if you want to get in touch with me directly.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: Perfect.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: That's perfect. So I want to move to our last, you know, we started with a bit of theory, and I want to end in a bit of a fun thought experiment.
Who knows? It might not be as fun as I think.
[00:31:16] Speaker D: We'll give it a try.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: I'll give it a try.
[00:31:18] Speaker D: We'll see.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: So. So. And I think you're well positioned to. To offer a perspective on this because you have worked in different parts of economic development, let's imagine. And actually, the COVID reality offers us a more realistic thought experiment than we may have contemplated before. But if we were in a situation and let's say that we were the leading colonists on the moon, for example, and there was a blank slate for us to build an economy from.
And if we thought of the different actors involved in building a thriving economy, be it government actors, nonprofit actors, private sector actors, which of those hats would you like to wear? Which would be the role you'd like to be in, and what would be one of the first things you'd try to do to get things off to a promising start?
[00:32:06] Speaker D: That's great.
Well, I think I've always spent my focus and my time in my career where the public and private sector meet. Right. So my, my master's degree from the Claremont Graduate University in Southern California is in. In politics, economics and business. It was an MA peb And what intrigued me about that was, you know, I'm in classes with, you know, policy, government students, and I'm in classes with economic students. And then. And then I was in business classes at the Peter Drucker School of Management and dealing with, you know, folks who are going to go into the private sector. And then I ended up in economic development. And economic development is essentially, you are the bridge between the public and private sector. So I spent a lot of my career, I feel like, almost as an Interpreter Trying to help government understand the needs of the private sector, but also help private sector understand the needs and requirements of government.
So I think we places that operate well generally tend to have really good working relationships between the public and private sector.
Atlanta is an example, where I just came from, where commerce is very important in the city of Atlanta and in that region.
And there's a really good working relationship between the public and private sector, government and private companies.
My experience here in this region is it's not as good as you see some of the headlines coming out of the city of Seattle and Amazon and taxes.
And in conversations I've had that you hear business regulation, business friendliness becomes issues.
So I don't think those things need to be so diametrically opposed.
So if I were on the moon starting a new colony, I would want to build government from the beginning that made sure that private sector interests were being built into those systems and so that the dialogue so that they were building together so that they not seeing each other as adversarial. I think that's where you can get best outcomes for everyone.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: That's great. That's great. And that's a great, thoughtful finish to our conversation. I want to thank you, Brian, for a really rich dialogue and thanks for being involved with the show and I'm excited to see what GSP does going forward.
[00:35:02] Speaker D: Yeah, my pleasure, Tripp. Thank you so much.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Check the show notes for links and information mentioned in the episode, and explore the other episodes in this season to learn more on this topic. Look, I've listened to them all. I'm obviously a little bit biased, but I really do think each offers a valuable perspective you'll appreciate.
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